The Perils and Rewards of Relocation

[JurisDoctorOfDoom]

This was just sent in by a reader. It's extremely good, particularly the last 1/2-to-2/3. He's accepted my invite to field questions here on the forum:

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Archives2007/ReaderSubmission.html

[Dennis from Oregon]

This is a great article, and right on in advising that it takes time to become accepted, if it happens at all..

I have some questions for the author:

1.  From reading your article I note that you got into your original cabin and had 10K left over.  From that I infer that you had equity in property, savings, or both.  What would be your advice for our readers that have neither but are strongly considering adopting your advice and example??

2.  You started with a cabin, I assume it was free and clear??  You now have a well insulated 3000 sq. ft.  foot home and shop.  Im assuming you and/or your partner have found an alternative income source??  Could you elaborate on this?? 

Thanks for taking the time to put down your thoughts and actions.  Its something that will be carefully considered by many here and may very well make a difference in the lives of our readership.

[Michelle in Ga]

Yeah, good article.  It covered the emtional as well as the physical issues.

When we moved 40 minutes away "to the country", our neighbors didn't wave to us
for several years. Now they've got our backs and watch our property for us. One way
to avoid some of the us/them is to marry a local chap, which I did. I'll never be one of
"them", heck even my native born kids speak slightly differently than the locals, but I'm
in via marriage. Cheers,Michele

[Elkhunter]

Reply from the Author:

When we left Colorado, we had a $75,000 profit from the sale of our property. I may add that this "profit" came about from "sweat equity", as we had worked our tails off improving our acreage from a state of long neglect when we bought it, to a charming and functional mini-farm when we sold it. In many ways, leaving it was emotionally difficult. The huge inflation in Colorado property prices occurred after we left, so the gain in value wasn't caused by an increase in the demand curve. Arguably, those economics "came out in the wash" as land prices in Idaho have also reached dizzying heights for similar reasons. "Easy money" is a significant part of the inflated prices as well, but migration is a factor one shouldn't discount. The timing of our move was an accident of history, not the result of my being a "Seer" and being able to accurately argue that "now is the time". Can you say "dumb luck"?

As long as we're on the subject of luck, I'll continue. We managed to find this place; year-round creek and surrounded by a National Forest with antiquated shelter still standing for $65,000.00. Not bad soil either, if you don't mind a few rocks here and there. Sometime a lot of rock here and there. They don't call them the "Rocky Mountains" for want of reason. So yes, the cabin and land was procured "free and clear". Imagine having no debt. It's almost like imagining peace breaking out all over. Nigh impossible...

Were we without the monies to begin this grand adventure in the manner we did, I would argue that moving to a small town a good distance from population centers and renting would be the correct course of action. Naturally, one should measure ones' talents and marketable skills with what "seems" to be available in regards to employment. I mention "seems" in regard to availability of employment because oft times, small, but very profitable economic niches are left unfilled in the rural areas. At any rate, renting is a "low-cost, low-risk" means of entry to a new area. You may find you hate the place... If renting and you can't stand it, leaving is a U-Haul truck away. Selling property after your spouse gives you an ultimatum is an entirely different matter.

The other benefit of renting is it gives one time to tour the area and study it and possible purchase locations in great detail. Sometimes the "best deal" happens because you are there at the right place and the right time. The operative word(s) in that sentence is "there". An additional benefit of spending at least some time in "town" is that you get to know, at least superficially, the people who live there. Small towns have very peculiar dynamics, and if from a large metropolis will take some time to understand the phenomena. 
 
I suppose some readers will think I'm leaning towards the belief system held by Richard Leakey's missing anthropoids, but my "partner" is my wife of now 27 years. She is every bit as beautiful in soul and spirit as when I met her when Jimmy Carter was President. And I may add that she has aged quite gracefully. She came to me in the early 1990's with one of her rather rare complaints and said, "I feel like I'm missing out on our children's lives". Working moms pay a price that few admit to and most men can't appreciate. She was in management and well paid for her efforts, but the pain in her heart from watching her young offspring grow outside her reach caused her great discomfort. Moving here and changing our lives changed that. She is now as peaceful and content as one could be, and I am the sole generator of income.

I had previously mentioned "economic niches" oft times available in rural areas. As mentioned, we had $10,000.00 left after we had paid for the place and took up residence. We had no income and no visible prospects for any. I did the most logical thing I could think of. I bought a big old bottle of "Wild Turkey 101" and drank enough so I could talk to myself. Once I got to the proper state of mind, I surveyed my circumstances and said, "What in the hell have I done." The rest of what happened in that conversation is best left unsaid. Around noon the next day, even though it seemed a bit cloudy, one thing was clear; I had to do something.

My academic degree is in history and my wife's is in business. We both wanted her to be home with her young charges and the expertise garnered while earning my degree was of little value out here. Frankly, though I love the subject, a history degree isn't of much value anywhere, even to the government. The last thing they want around is someone who might actually know something.

I had realized this horrible circumstance a couple decades prior, so I had pursued an economy in Landscape Construction. I had owned a pretty good size outfit, and the good thing about that business is there are so many facets to it. i had a pretty fair understanding of darn near all of them. If there is one truly bad thing about the Western U.S., it is that it is loaded with weeds. An I mean "loaded". Opportunity was staring me right in the face. Staring at me really hard.


I hate staring contests. I always have and always will. They are a complete waste of time. I figured the best way to end this one was to grab the opportunity and run with it. I got licensed with the proper State authority, bought a spray-rig, and a modest fortune was soon mine. There wasn't another operator within 150 miles. When opportunity knocks, open the door and invite it in. We saved the profit and paid cash for the materials and the "family" built its new home, shop, sheds, etc. What a concept. A family working together for a common goal and purpose. In this day and age. And there is no debt from the effort.

There exists opportunity. And if you wish to make good money, be your own master. That is the key. So as they say, "Keep the wind at your back", unless you are hunting...

[JurisDoctorOfDoom]

Elkhunter,

Awesome post. Will reply more later.

[kaykay]

Elkhunter......thank you for the insight.......moments come in everyones lives when the door behind you is closing and one in front is opening......being awake is a good thing!  I don't think is was luck, good or bad, it was being awake at the right time.

[Erin]

To the author,

What age are your children now?  Are they able to comprehend and appreciate this wonderful thing that you have done for them and for your family?  Do they ever feel "cheated" out of doing all of the things that typical kids do, or are they unaware of it?

I am really curious to hear how your children were affected by your choices.  It is obvious that they have been blessed with a childhood that most could only dream of, but are they yet able to see it as such?

Thanks, your words are inspirational.

[Elkhunter]

A reply to Erin from the Author:

Currently, our offspring are of the following ages; 23, 19, 15, and 11. Answering that query is truly the only easy response to the questions you have posed.

In regards to whether or not they are appreciative of what we as parents decided and how those decisions have impacted them, I will argue that they are very appreciative, but certainly not as an absolute. Kids are kids, and as anyone who recalls their own youth can remember, emotions trump intellect more often than not.

Initially, the entire state of affairs for them was like a never-ending "summer camp". And if one will recall, I made mention in the essay that we engaged in a great deal of the "do it ourselves" activity while residing in Colorado. That sort of familial behavior creates a bond between all the family members. And that is quality missing in most of today's American families. Further, with such a strong family structure, the siblings themselves become emotionally closer to eachother than their "modernist" counterparts because of the amount of time spent together, whether in work or at play. I don't mean to sound sappy, but it has been a beautiful thing to experience. We all really love eachother.

There oft times is a general belief that the individuals who seek both safety and solace out side the physical confines of the large urban areas are "anti-social", and that their offspring all resemble the banjo-picking mutant who appeared in a cameo role in "Deliverance". Those poor souls are everywhere; it's just that most aren't worth a damn on a banjo so they pass by unnoticed. And once you are "out in the sticks", just warn your kids to marry someone they meet at College... Keep the old "gene pool" fresh. And in regards to being "anti-social", anyone who still has most of their marbles should be at least a little bit misanthropic. Things are just about as screwed up as they can get! The reality is that most everyone we have met in the last decade who has left the "Collective" for whatever reason, happens to be highly educated, articulate, and very concerned about the current state of affairs. It is the intellect of those who are still there that I question...

Shortly after we settled in, we enrolled the kids in 4-H. And fortunately for us the club they have been in is very active and the majority of the children are good kids, coming from pretty good homes. In a sense, yeah, we're picking and have picked their friends. Not directly, but with a firm hand of guidance. Isn't that a parents job? Or is it that as parents we should adopt this current insanity that your children should be inundated by and be welcome to the constant exposures to drug-addled morons whose fifteen year-old girlfriends are knocked up (again) and we should graciously welcome them into our home? Say what?

The 4-H experience has been great for them. They have travelled extensively across the State, attended conferences in Washington, D.C. and Atlanta, Georgia, plus Spokane, Boise, and Salt Lake. There have been mini-legislative sessions held at the State Capital that they have participated in... Plus horses, steers, chickens, goats, sheep, turkeys, small engine repair, conservation projects, knitting, sewing; the list is endless and the experience priceless. We let them pick the projects (with a little help) and then generally step gently aside. Completion is almost always done by themselves or with other club members. We only step in if a disaster is unfolding. A little advice is generally all it takes. Kids can do great things if only Mom and Dad will let them.

Do they feel cheated? I would say "occasionally". But the funny thing is the only time they really mention it is at the end of a tough day. It is then we hear the "I wished we lived in town." And even then, it's pretty rare. And they know "what they are missing" and they know what those other kids are missing as well. Thankfully, their own perspectives on life and what is considered important to them, are fed back to us mainly after extended interchange with other kids. Our middle son spent a day, night, and the following day at a friend's house in town (30 miles away). This particular kid seems like a good fellow with fairly typical parents. An "X-Box" with a myriad of games had been given to the kid and the majority of the time our young lad was there, they played with that infernal machine.

Upon returning home the next day, Joseph related their activities, expressing some excitement over the hours-long transfixation with the X-Box and all the different games they played. He seemed almost euphoric about the experience, which was beginning to create some consternation on our part. Then he said, "I don't know how those kids can do that for so long." He then turned to his younger brother and said, "Hey, let's go get the animals done and play - Okay?" Ahhh - What a good kid!

Not a one of these children have ever had to go look for a job while living here. People call and offer them jobs, and they are paid adult wages. Our 15 year-old was hired last June to help on a "Lodge" remodel. The owners placed the call and offered him $9.50 an hour to start. At the time he was fourteen. The same had been such for his older brother and sister, now away at college. And they have always said that if it wasn't how they were raised, those opportunities would not have come their way. So have their employers.

They are all quite "centered" in the "personal" spiritual sense. By that I mean the Thoreou-type spirituallity, which is a complement to the spirituality of their religious faith. Living in remote locales makes you a part of that particular biosphere. And unlike cities, it is all very real and all complex and intertwined. You see things, feel, hear, touch, and smell, and it is all so real at times it is overwhelming. You see birth and death, whether it is your own livestock or if you happen to come across a lion feeding on a kill. They hold in their hands a baby chick who you know won't make it,  and then watch the tears roll down their cheeks when its little head finally slumps over. And it is a scene played over and over, year after year. They learn, and they understand things in a way their city-dwelling brethern simply cannot conceive. For them life is not an abstract, it is all quite real and rather immediate.

And they can handle silence...

I would like to comment on the concept of "typical" kids versus "normal" kids. When I was a young lad in fifth grade, sex was the farthest thing from my mind and remained as such for a number of years following. Such was the normative outlook of almost every "typical" kid back then. We were concerned with the "really important" things; our bicycles, our baseball gloves and who we thought would play in the "Series" that fall. We ran around with BB guns, scarring the bark off thousands of Cottonwoods as we honed our budding talents. We spent hours trying to get that fourth or fifth skip off the ponds surface with just the right stone. The allure, traps and pitfalls of love and sex could wait for the years ahead. And perhaps not oddly, such was the case because that is the way it should be.

When our eldest son was in fifth grade, he came home one afternoon and presented me with a mimeographed sheet of paper with a facsimile of a female's reproductive organs on it. He had been assigned the task of labelling the various parts of this section of the human anatomy. He was ten years old.  I was taken aback, not just because of the fact a fifth-grader was charged with such an assignment, but that this child was attending a Parochial School!

My wife was really taken aback! Almost to the point of rage! We arranged a meeting with the "Head Nun" the next day and engaged in a fairly animated conversation with her regarding the assignment. "It is all part of our sex education curriculum," she stated. "We pride ourselves on having the same curriculum as District 51." I replied, "If you have the same curriculum as the public schools, exactly what the hell am I paying you for? My kids are here because I don't like or approve of that damn curriculum!" The good Sister didn't really respond, so my wife chipped in her two-bits. "Listen here Sister" she said, If I think it's important for that kid to know this, I'll go hire him a damn prostitute! Do you understand me?" That was the most priceless two-bits I've ever heard. 
Our son no longer had to go to "sex education" class. We moved the next year and began to home-school our kids. And we never did get the kid a prostitute either.

I like "normal" kids. Here's what a normal kid will do. Last summer, our youngest, who was ten at the time said he wanted to go fishing. We were all engaged in other things and I said, "go ahead". "Stay close...", a response which was really a kind of a plea, question, and order, all at the same time. The rest of us continued to go about our business and after a couple of hours, he walked up from the creek, absolutely beaming, with a grin from ear to ear. In his right hand hung six - 12 inch Rainbow Trout on a striinger. He said, "I caught us dinner!" Indeed he had, and that is my idea of a "normal" kid. Today, the "typical" kid isn't going fishing, is he?

[Shaunta]

I have a question:

Is it worth it to relocate to a less-than-ideal place if you have built in community there?

We live in Las Vegas (which, IMO is the least sustainable place in the country) and I have family and friends in a rural Nevada mountain town.  The town is high desert:  very cold winters, short growing season and not enough rain (about 10 inches plus 50 inches of snow.)  Would it be better to find somewhere with more rain, more temperate climate, better land--but where we wouldn't know anyone?

We're 90 percent sure we'll move to this little town at the end of the summer.  My husband is a casino dealer and has been offered a job at the little casino there.  We've found a house on five acres and plan to build up a CSA in the next couple of years so that by the time tourist industry collapses, we'll have a Plan B.

But I can't stop this nagging feeling that maybe we should be looking beyond where we have family.  I hate the idea of living far from any family--and since both of our families are all in Nevada (mostly Las Vegas), anywhere outside of Nevada is far away.  This town is 250 miles east of Vegas. (It's called Ely.)

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Shaunta

[Nicholas]

Quote from the Article Any notion that the folks "out there" will welcome a flood of foolish refugees is simply a delusion

I’m guessing if history and the mentality of man is anything to go by, then I'd say welcome or not, the motive to survive will make ordinary people behave out of the ordinary. So I’m guessing people will just "invade" your land and take it using military/rebel style force.

Having said that, I take my hat off to you and congratulate the author on putting the effort into making a very hard move and succeeding at it.

[Zac]

I have a few questions if you don't mind elaborating:

(1) I'm assuming you have electricity at your home since you mentioned a number of electrical appliances.  Is your electricity provided by a utility or self generated?  (If self generated, how was that done?)   Do you have air conditioning? 

(2) Do you have telephone (landwire or cellular) service?  How about high speed internet? 

(3) Do you have a well and septic system or are you on municipal water/sewer?

(4) What kind of construction is your home?  (wood frame, steel frame, etc.)  What did you use to insulate it to achieve R38 in the walls (and how thick are the walls)?  What type of windows do you use to maintain a high insulation value?

(5) Are the roads leading to your property paved?  Passable in the winter?

Thanks,

Zac

[deaddrift]

Elk Hunter - Thanks for taking the time to create/post the article and reply to questions from other members.
After happening upon Peak Oil about 1.5 years ago via watching a TV interview with Mike Ruppert... I've mostly been gathering information and preparing financially.
You motivated me to make my first post, primarily, to thank members like you for sharing your experiences and viewpoints.  I will defintely leverage your experience in planning my return to MT thereby upgrading my cubicle based suburban existence for something sustainable and MEANINGFUL.  Never should have left... but my family and I will return, prepared for the realities of the transition.     

[Elkhunter]

From the Author:

In regards to Shaunta's questions: You mentioned you had family and friends already in Ely. You have no idea how helpful that is. Ely is a great location for solar power, and if you modified the home so you could add a greenhouse on the south-facing side, you folks could produce a suprising amount of food plus benefit from the passive heat. It is always "better" to be in a location where the soil is better, rains fall gently and the temperatures are always just right. I think of Camelot and the Garden of Eden.
Ely is doable. If we are graced with time, work on amending your soils with organic materials and learn how to use micro-irrigation. Get there, get books and milk information from anyone there who seems to be succeeding at a similar lifestyle. Praising someone else's success will generally open conversational doors which may have otherwise remain closed. Good Luck!

In addressing the comment posited by Nicholas, I couldn't agree with you more. And there is no truly safe place. One of the primary reasons my wife and I chose this little haven was its distance from population centers. Morally, we would prefer to never have to engage in violent defensive measures. One of our hopes was that its relative isolation would reduce the likelihood of having to resort to such behavior. But as you point out, the will to survive has a tendency to make mockery of moral codes, and what happens, happens. Another plus of already "being there" is that you know the terrain... All one can do is try.

Zac,
1. We have electricity that is self-generated. I mentioned we have a year-round creek that courses through the property. Moving water is also horsepower. After going through the bureaucratic hoops (check your own States requirements), we designed and built our hydroelectric system. We generate an average of 1 kw, 24/7/365. The system is 24 volt, with ES&D Brushless Turbines. The battery bank consists of industrial 2 volt deep-cycles linked accordingly. The inverter is a Trace 4024. A Trace C-40 regulator is used to control overcharge. We do not have air conditioning. As the structure is R-38, if the windows are left open throught the night
and closed by 11 a.m. or so, the house temperature never rises above 70 even if the outside temps are in the upper 90's. Insulation is your friend all year long.

2.  We have landwire telephone service. Why it is here I do not know and we were amazed that it was when we bought the place. There is no cellular, thank God! I'm not into being slowly microwaved to death. High speed internet is my friend. Yes, we have it.

3. We drilled a well when we built the new house. Best water I've ever had. As the nearest town is thirty miles away, we decided putting in a septic system was the sensible choice.

4. The house is of wood construction, framed with 2X6 studs. We used the foam insulation which gives an R-value of 7 per inch of depth. The windows are double-pane, gas filled. When we installed the windows, we used the low expansion foam to seal around them. We have a steel roof. The siding is a product called "Hardi-Panel", which is fiberglass-reinforced concrete. It comes in 4X8 sheets and the style we chose looks like stucco. They also produce trim that simulates wood made of the same material. We chose it because the cost was very competitive with alternate systems and concrete has a high flash point. Forest and grass fires can really wreck your day, so we attempted to use non-flamable materials everywhere we could.                         

5. We live a couple miles up a non-maintained "Forest Service" Road. Obviously, it is not paved. We have a "Boss" 9'2" V-plow to keep it open in the winter. If and when things deteriorate to untenable levels, it won't be plowed unless there is an emergency.

An important suggestion for all! We also keep on hand a foam system for wildland fires callled "Barricade", manufactured by Barricade International in Florida. A few hundred bucks and you can coat your own house, and the stuff works up to 3000 degrees!
Not a bad thing to have laying around. "Keep from freezing."

[RMolineaux]

My wife and I are in the process of relocating to another country.  Ours is a retirement situation, but I hope to be able to obtain sufficient land to be doing a lot of self-sufficiency work, as I always have, while keeping our social security check as a safety net.  I also have in mind that our children and grandchildren may choose at some point to join us there.  I would be interested in reading about the experiences of others in this kind of endeavor, and would be happy to share ours, if there is interest.

[Shaunta]

Thank you so much for the reply to my question.

If Nevada is good for anything, it is DEFINITELY solar power!  I don't know of any CSA farms in the area, but I do know that a lot of people garden, many many people have fruit and nut trees in their yards and there is a lot of cattle ranching (and alfalfa farms.) 

Compared to Las Vegas it is the Garden of Eden.  It's nearly impossible to even grow grass here.